Talk:When the Pawn...

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Albums

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Albums, an attempt at building a useful resource on recordings from a variety of genres. If you would like to participate, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.AlbumsWikipedia:WikiProject AlbumsTemplate:WikiProject AlbumsAlbum

Alternative music Mid‑importance

	Rock music portal This article is part of WikiProject Alternative music, a group of Wikipedians interested in improving the encyclopedic coverage of articles relating to alternative rock. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by the project page and/or leave a query at the project's talk page.Alternative musicWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative musicTemplate:WikiProject Alternative musicAlternative music
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

On 11 April 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to When the Pawn .... The result of the discussion was not moved.

Genres

Alright, I'm starting this discussion regarding the excessive amount of unsourced genres, which prior were included in the infobox. @TheUser225!: added alternative pop from a source [1] that @Longislandtea: disagrees with for multiple reasons.[2] [3] I'm fully okay with just having alternative pop as it's the only source that directly calls the album that specific genre. The current ref from The Solute also does not state the album is alternative rock — only stating it takes some of the alternative rock sounds from Apples debut album Tidal for some songs for When the Pawn…. Pillowdelight (talk) 22:38, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How long are you going to go to war for a genre that did not exist at the time of its release and which has never been added to this page ever before you came? Even the page for Alt pop simply redirects to indie pop, a genre that did exist but was never associated with Fiona Apple. If you're this nitpicky about this album being considered alt rock, here's another source that describes Fiona's first two records as a mix of alternative rock, jazz and singer-songwriter. https://www.spectrum-pulse.ca/blog/album-review-fetch-the-boltcutters-by-fiona-apple. I will add it. Do you have anything else? Longislandtea (talk) 22:50, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative pop directs to alternative pop I don’t know what you mean by that. As well as, the genre was originated in the 1980s which is even stated on its page so I’m not sure why that’s your excuse repeatedly? That source is coming from a blog which is against Wikipedia. Pillowdelight (talk) 22:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Tbhotch: @Blueberry72: @Binksternet: Could you guys comment on this? I can already tell this dispute is not going to get anywhere unless other editors share their thoughts on this genre issue. Pillowdelight (talk) 23:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you search Alternative pop, the wikipedia page for indie pop shows up because alt pop is a derivative form or evolution of indie pop. What else are you referring to? Alt pop simply isn't accurate descriptor of this album. I don't know where you got that from. Yes, indie pop originated in the 70s but Alt pop is used to describe artists such as Lorde and Lana del rey of the early 2010s generally speaking. Indie pop refers to music that is not similar to Fiona's at all, it is associated with twee and jangle pop. Tidal is closer to that than When the Pawn. Alt pop wasn't a common descriptor in the 90s. This album is thought of as an art pop, art rock or alt rock, jazz and chamber pop album. I honestly am not sure if you've even listened to this album for yourself. The previous genre list before you edited it down was far more accurate. Longislandtea (talk) 23:13, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Longislandtea: What make the sources you included reliable sources? (CC) Tbhotch^™ 23:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They're album reviews. The same type of reviews that are added as sources for genres to other albums. Longislandtea (talk) 23:18, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Album reviews require reliability. The Solute's review was published by Matthew Crowe ("Roboplegic Wrongcock"), who self-describes as a "Struggling to become an accepted member of society." Spectrum Pulse says it is a self-published blog. Both fail Wikipedia's basic WP:RS criteria. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 23:21, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have you ever contributed to the When the Pawn page? I feel as though you've probably been called to come here by your friend to simply defend them. You're also going on personal attacks on the writer. The site is not a blog. The Solute calls itself a collective and film reviewing site that reviews other media as well such as music. Where did you get blog from? Seems like you're reaching for straws. Why are you in this discussion unless you're an editor for this page? Longislandtea (talk) 23:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you're trying to attack this writer's personality and credidentials, he also has written for the Brooklyn Review. Longislandtea (talk) 23:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll ask you to tone down your personal commentary about other people, including me. Having read The Solute's full page, you would have found this specific link where Crowe describes as such. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 23:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is the relevance of this? He's a still a writer. And that is not a blog. Longislandtea (talk) 23:38, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is relevant as it is a questionable writer. "Matthew Crowe" is a popular name. If that Crowe is this Crowe you'd have a point. But you have to prove they are the same person since you said it above. Furthermore, I didn't say The Solute is a blog, even though it is powered by Wordpress, a blogging site. I said Spectrum Pulse is a blog, as its author indicates it here. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 23:42, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is your issue with Matthew Crowe? What about him upsets you? Longislandtea (talk) 23:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Before today, I didn't know he existed. I'll ask you to stop going off on a tangent and stay on topic. These are the sources you provided. I, as a Wikipedia editor (regardless if I edit Fiona Apple topics or not) can and will question the reliability of a provided source. This is why we have pages like WP:ALBUM/REVSIT and WP:RSP. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 00:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You think anybody knew about Atwood Magazine over PITCHFORK? No. Your edit is being talked about on twitter by Fiona Apple fans and other music fans. They're saying it's inaccurate. That's how I first even took notice that somebody changed the entire genre list that had been there for ages for some random magazine. Your reasoning makes no sense and you can't seem to explain what makes something alt pop. Longislandtea (talk) 00:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fiona Apple fans are not reliable sources and their opinions are irrelevant for me. I don't have to explain "alt pop" because I a) didn't add alt pop, b) the page, which you think you WP:OWN, says "Alternative rock", c), the categorization of this page as "Jazz albums by American artists" "Alternative rock albums by American artists" and "Art pop albums", was performed by (most likely) the same fans you mentioned without providing sources that back up their points of view. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 00:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They were changed by editors. You're not one to judge who is or who isn't to make a decision on genre. Fans aren't the ones who have categorized the album as alt rock, it has been that way since 1999. Every editor before you agreed that this is the general consensus because it is. You have to name more places where this is agreed upon to make sure your source is accurate. Unfortunately it isn't. Longislandtea (talk) 00:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I can, it is called WP:BURDEN. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 00:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All of those lists are far more accurate than your one source that you can't even corroborate with anything else. You need to be able to corroborate and you can't. Not a single other source. Those lists have existed way longer than you've been editing. Not sure why you don't like Fiona Apple being categorized as rock. Longislandtea (talk) 00:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That comment makes no sense. I'll proceed to remove the genres since they are unsourced or poorly sourced. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 00:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't you being insanely biased? I'll check with other admins tomorrow. Longislandtea (talk) 00:52, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to do it. My comments clearly explain each situation. Good night. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 01:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, it doesn't. First of all, you've claimed my source is a blog which it isn't. Pitchfork is a far more authoritative source, the artist herself has been extensively interviewed by Pitchfork and Pitchfork firmly categorizes this album as Rock. Longislandtea (talk) 01:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As you mentioned above, you want to report me to the admins, then go ahead. My conversation with you ended above since you don't have the ability to listen to others. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 05:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you not know how Wikipedia works? I pinged a few editors who are proficient in music related pages to help you understand because I genuinely feel like I'm talking to a brick wall when interacting with you. Pillowdelight (talk) 23:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They're not well-versed with this album because it's not thought of as an alt-pop album at all. Hence why it hasn't been described as such on Wikipedia or elsewhere beyond the cherry picked source of yours. Longislandtea (talk) 23:42, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We go by what reliable sources say regardless of what editors believe to be true or not. Your main argument is that you believe it's not an alternative pop album simply on the basis that it's just wrong. Pillowdelight (talk) 23:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do not BELIEVE. It IS. Scroll down and see for yourself, the album has been added on to the following pages: Alternative rock, jazz and art pop. View the history of this page. Never has it ever been described as alternative pop, source or no source. Your source is irrelevant and goes against the grain of almost every other source out there. The Solute is by no means less legit than your source. If anything, the opposite. Do I need to send a screenshot? Longislandtea (talk) 23:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting way out of hand. Have you paid any attention to the Template:Infobox album? TheUser225! (talk) 23:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes and my source is not a blog. Longislandtea (talk) 00:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You clearly didn't pay attention to @Tbhotch: messages, right? TheUser225! (talk) 00:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The source isn't a blog. And they know that. Longislandtea (talk) 00:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And no matter how many times your take out my edit into yours :which again: that is completely unrelieved , I'm going to keep putting my edit back to the article because is at referencing it directly. TheUser225! (talk) 00:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Atwood Magazine does not directly refer to the album as alternative pop and it is also a fluff piece, and not an album review. The Solute directly refers to Fiona's first records as alternative rock, jazz and singer-songwriter. Go on but every person visiting this site will know that every other more popular site for music (such as rateyourmusic, allmusic and Pitchfork) do not state what this page is stating yet every other site is stating the same few genres that can't be found here. Then they'll scroll to the bottom and see art pop, alternative rock and jazz and know somebody probably changed the genre list to something that makes little to no sense. Go on. Longislandtea (talk) 00:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:EXPLICITGENRE

See it for yourself. TheUser225! (talk) 00:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly can’t tell if you're just trolling at this point or what because alternative pop is stated in the very first sentence in the Atwood Magazine source stating — In the 24 years that have passed since a 22-year-old Fiona Apple released her gritty, liberating and poignant alternative pop album When The Pawn…. Everything you've stated or included has been wrong, unreliable or poorly sourced the entire time. Pillowdelight (talk) 00:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody has ever heard of Atwood Magazine. It's an irrelevant fluffpiece that's not an analysis of her music but a revisit piece on her career. Longislandtea (talk) 00:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add that When the Pawn has been added to wikipedia album pages for American alternative rock, art pop and jazz albums. If you scroll down the page of When the Pawn..., you'll see. This is the general consensus and it has been established for a long time now. I'm not being controversial by saying it's an art pop, alt rock and jazz album. It's really the opposite. Longislandtea (talk) 23:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TheUser225!: Please, stop edit-warring the genre or I'll have to request this page to be protected. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 00:51, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're edit-warring as well, you've edited as many times as I have. Longislandtea (talk) 00:53, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine. TheUser225! (talk) 00:54, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not. And you've invited users who already agree with you despite you not being to explain a single point why the album is Alt-pop. It makes no sense. Where else has this album been listed as that? Pitchfork is a more authoritative source than Atwood Magazine. Please explain it. The only thing you've done is nitpick sources based on false information. The Solute is NOT a blog. You've not nor your friends here have even redacted those false statements. Longislandtea (talk) 01:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was replying to Tbhotch, not you. TheUser225! (talk) 01:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And still, it's not. You've also made false accusations about my source just to put yourself first. Longislandtea (talk) 01:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I read both Pitchfork reviews and at most I found "Genre: Rock", which is generic. Minna Abdel-Gawad from Atwood Magazine is a "writer currently pursuing a Journalism degree at Emerson College." The reliability relies on the magazine, but they are an independent journal. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 01:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]